The head of the delegation, Gwendoline Delbos-Corfield (Greens/EFA, FR), Isabel Wiseler-Lima (EPP, LU), Bettina Vollath (S&D, AT), Nicolas Bay (ID, FR), Jorge Buxadé Villalba (ECR, ES) and Malin Björk (The Left, SE) summarise their impressions and take questions on the outcome of the meetings and the follow-up planned at the Civil Liberties committee. During their three-day visit to Budapest, from Wednesday 30 September to Friday 1 October, MEPs of the Civil Liberties committee met the Hungarian Ministers for Justice and Interior, Budapest’s Mayor, as well as representatives of the political opposition. They also held exchanges with civil society organisations, journalists, the Commissioner for Fundamental Rights, representatives of academia and the education system, and of several cultural institutions.

BAY, Nicolas (ECR, FR)

EU mechanism on democracy, the rule of law and fundamental rights (T)

BJÖRK, Malin (The Left, SE)

EU - Hungary (T)

DELBOS-CORFIELD, Gwendoline (Greens/EFA, FR)

VOLLATH, Bettina (S&D, AT)

BUXADÉ VILLALBA, Jorge (ECR, ES)

WISELER-LIMA, Isabel (EPP, LU)

Press conference by the members of the LIBE delegation in Hungary

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, Hello, everyone. So I was the chair of this delegation, and as you may know, I'm the rapporteur of the European Parliament on the situation on Hungary, of rule of law in Hungary. We went to Budapest from Wednesday to Friday. This mission was planned since 2019, it had been voted in in committee LIBE by the coordinators already in 2019, planned to take place in March 2020. But because of the pandemic in February 2020, all missions were stopped and since then it had been a priority for us to go back there as quickly as possible. So this is why we went in September.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, Of course, this means such a mission from the Liberty Committee had not taken funds since 2011, so it's it was time to do it even more, when you know, we've been in European Parliament working so much on this topic and and voting resolution and talking about Hungary in various text that we did in Parliament. So it was really time to go on the ground. It was an official motion with the seven political groups we presented and all of them will be there tonight to talk to you, except from we knew, the rapresentative is traveling to Strasbourg at the moment, so she won't be able. But of course, you can contact her if you if you want to have her impression.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, But seven political groups were represented. The program was very, very packed, very busy and it really tried to embrace the scope of the Sargentini report and all the concerns we have in European Parliament. So we met with the justice world, we've met with judges, we met with the National Council of Judiciary, National Office of Judiciary, the Constitutional Court and the Supreme Court. We met with media people, those that are critical with the government and those that are not critical with the government. We met with civil society, civil society that are not critical and civil society that are critical.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, We met with people from academics culture and then we met also members of Parliament of the Justice Committee in the National Parliament of Dopest, the European Affairs Committee of the Opposition. So leaders of the opposition, the mayor of Budapest and also we met with two ministers, Minister of Justice and Minister of Interior. We met approximately more than 100 person and spoke concretely to 85 out of them. So just to give you an idea of how packed it was, we would not have any break and these people would be rushed in and rushed out, which didn't always allow to have all of the time of discussion we wanted to have.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, And I really want to to to say how I regret that. Sometimes some of them would have liked to talk more and we couldn't, but all of them had contribution to give. One person refused to talk to us. This was a deputy of a of a media that is not critical to the government. He made quite a moment of theater himself, but he then claimed that we would joke and theater, and he just left. He made this little brief, prepared text and then just left, and then in two places in the Constitutional Court and in the Curia, the Supreme Court, it was not easy to be honest to have a dialog. They would not answer some of the questions. I mean, only in the both cases, only the two presidents talked.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, These two gentlemen would not answer our question most of the time, and they also, for one of them, at least in Curia Supreme Court, it was really quite aggressive and said that we were having contempt to justice with our questions. So that's for a brief, brief framework of of what we did on justice. Since the Sargentini report, there has been, of course, numerous reforms the omnibus bill, I am sure you know about it.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, There has been continuous problems with the fact that judges are concerned with the Supreme Court president and the Constitutional Court president, not only not being judges themselves in exercise, but also have been appointed by the government and I mean by the parliament with a two thirds majority and also because they have in last reforms, they have got more and more powers over not only the carriers, the places where where judges are affected, but also there is a big feeling that they have powers on the allocation of cases. On this, we didn't get any clear answers of the of the officials, so we stay with a questioning on this.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, I think that what needs to be pointed out is the feeling by those judges that more and more what happens in local governments is overseen at a high level and that there's no more independence and not enough independence at local level. But the the biggest story, of course, is the story of a female judge who asked a preliminary question to the European Court of Justice and was then not installed in her job. And it seems that it's so exceptional this case that it is viewed as a punishment for the fact that she did this preliminary question. This has a chilling effect that has been numeracy talked about by stakeholders.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, On media pluralism, the big positive answer that is given by those that should work on this topic being the media board authority and the people next to the close to government is that when you look at the data and we were provided with a lot of this data, you can see they are as much, media, are critical to the government that those that are not critical of the government. When you start asking questions about how the public financing is made to this different media and of course indeed there are a lot of critical media that exist, but do they have the same financing as the others? the answer came that this is not the rule.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, This is not the rule, the market has to allow things to go themselves. The media board's authority, when asked about the fact that opposition never gets any broadcasting in the public media, and when I say never, I intend the mayor of Budapest, for example, that only went once on public media, and this is true for most of the opposition. When asked about this, the media board says that it is not their job to foresee this, to act on this. About civil society, there are some of those declared pro-government that it was fine.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, Civil society that are critical of the government expressed the fact that for them, it is getting more and more difficult there, various laws have made a number of things more difficult for a society. civil Some of them are funded sometimes by foreign foundations to help asylum seekers, to do a certain number of legal advice to people in need of legal advice. The way that all of this has been criminalized as a huge effect, and they have been telling us that they are more and more worried.

Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), head of the delegation In academics and education, the question of more and more of influence of the centralized government and the question of a new big law that has transferred most of the universities to these foundations system, which is now very opaque system, this made these people express a lot of concern. And they feel that it will not only be the way that money and administrative things are held, but it will also have an influence on this schooling and the actual things that are taught.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, Now, just as a conclusion on all of this, I think we can stress on three points. The first one is this, and that's why, also so I finished on this distrust aspect, this foundation aspect that came back very often, and this is something of great worry and concern and is probably the thing where we, as Europeans, should be the most concerned. These public assets that are being transferred more and more in a number of domains. And lastly, in cultural and education, world really raises questions on how European funds that will be transferred to these new structures will have a way of having a transparent reading the law itself, saying that these foundation do not have to give any data on how they use the money once they get it.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, A second thing I think we should focus on is is this feeling that was expressed by a number of these people, the situation had become more, more and more difficult this last months and that they were very worried, even in case of change of government in next elections, that these trustees and the two third majority that has been reinforced in the constitutional law itself had is permitting to a number of people to have access to power and money, even the day they will not be in government anymore.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, One of the saying that came back a lot was the fact that there were now some aspects were cemented. And third thing is the Pegasus, I think this needs also to be stressed and the journalist we met, the journalist critical of government really said that that had been a change maker for them this summer.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, The idea that they were surveilled, they had not realized as much there was surveilled. When we asked a question about Pegasus to government, the two ministers, it was not possible to give us info because this information being given to the specific ad hoc committee in parliament and this was reserved to them.

SOUNDBITE (French), Gwendoline DELBOS-CORFIELD (Greens/EFA, FR), Head of the delegation, So we didn't get an answer on this. There was no, I mean, they didn't deny the fact that they used it, but they didn't give us info neither. That us really made an impression on the journalist. It has also made a big impression on the civil society. I really wanted to point out that Pegasus came back in a lot of the mouth of these people as a moment of bigger concern that it had been until now. I will now let the floor to the people that were with me in the mission.

SOUNDBITE (French), Isabel WISELER-LIMA (EPP, LU), Thank you very much. On the substance. I think that the chairman of the mission has pretty much said it all. I would, however, stress that the three final points which you mentioned are something I fully agree, I will stress the same points. On a somewhat more personal note, as far as my own evaluation is concerned, If a problem is raised in the EU regarding a member state, If the press referred to problems with fundamental rights or issues related to the rule of law, there's clearly problem, for that government.

SOUNDBITE (French), Isabel WISELER-LIMA (EPP, LU), Very often when we highlight a problem, governments or people representing governments saying that there's also a similar problem in another member state. For me, the big problem is that, in Hungary we're not just talking about a single problem, we're talking about a whole series of problems, which are of fundamental importance as the first point I would make. My second point, as I said at the beginning, normally speaking, I come from Luxembourg myself, and if somebody says there's a problem in my country, we then do our best to address the problem. Whereas here you get the impression there's no problem.

SOUNDBITE (French), Isabel WISELER-LIMA (EPP, LU), They are saying we are misconstruing the situation. We haven't got a problem. All of us are aware of the problems we've had. With the law, which means that homosexuals and pedophiles were basically lumped together, they say that they're just trying to protect the family and they won't talk anymore about it. So any problem we refer to? It is something which they simply discount as being a nonprofit. And that's one of the big difficulties we choose we have with future work. But I do hope we'll be able to continue, thank you.

SOUNDBITE (English), Bettina VOLLATH (S&amp;D, AT), Unfortunately, three years later, the situation has not improved but has gotten worse. The Hungarian government has further developed the country into an authoritarian regime where the separation of powers, freedom of the media and the independence of the justice system are not guaranteed any longer. During our visit, we got really warring insights with concrete cases in different fields. Among others, itchy the creation of foundations to control public universities and cultural institutions with little control oversight, or the recent appointment of the contested president of the Supreme Court by he spared with increased power. The trace is really strong concerned.

SOUNDBITE (English), Bettina VOLLATH (S&amp;D, AT), We regret the inability of the Council to make meaningful progress in enforcing union values in the ongoing Article seven procedures and to finally come up with concrete recommendations for Hungary. Furthermore, we urgently need the retrospective and immediate application of the new rule of law conditionality mechanism. I am convinced that we must do everything to defend the principle of rule of law, fundamental rights and democracy for all the Hungarian citizens. Thank you.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, FR), Thank you. This mission was done at the beginning of the election campaign in Hungary. So the date, I think, was ill-chosen, although the reason given for that. Now all of this was taking part because of Article seven, but it is the Council, of course, which made a political decision to halt the procedure. So once again, this is an initiative by the LIBE committee and it is not part and parcel of that procedure. But as the head of our delegation said that we had a three-day hearing, we had 84 people appear before us, but we didn't have any substantiated arguments, any facts and figures which would allow us to evidence any serious violations of human rights. And that apparently was the sole focus of our mission.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, FR), But of course we had members of the opposition not necessarily representatives of Hungarian society as a whole. I mean, there are interesting discussions, but the point is that there were, of course, political differences of opinions. You got, of course, NGOs, LGBTI organizations who are not in agreement with the Hungarian government, as is their right. Now, when it comes to the Constitutional Court, the president thereof is appointed by a parliamentary vote. I mean, that's always going to be better than in France, where you have the Constitutional Court being appointed unilaterally. No parliamentary vote possible. It is a fear by the president of the Republic.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, FR), Now we did ask a number of questions and, of course, nobody wanted to venture into political territory, because, of course, if you put questions to the head of a Constitutional Court, they do not wish to stray into such territory. Now there are not many European countries that would have proceeded in this way, and certainly nobody from whom we took evidence indicated there are any particular problems. And that is why I think we need to put an end to this political trial. This political procedure.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, FR), Now, five of the seven members of our committee were right from the outset, opposed politically to the Hungarian government. And from that point of view, this was going to be a fiasco, but there is no tangible evidence which allows LIBE to substantiate any claims of serious human rights violations. And that is all that we were there to find under the Article seven procedure.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Jorge BUXAD&Eacute; VILLALBA (ECR, ES), Yes, thank you very much indeed. Thank you to all of those of you who are there. What I would like to do, first of all, is to thank the Hungarian government for the way in which I hosted and assisted us in our work as a mission. Now, in the course of our three days in Hungary, we were able to hold a whole series of meetings with public authorities, with public and private organizations, some pro-government, some anti-government. Because Hungary is a state governed by the rule of law, it's got its own constitution, it's got laws which are approved by its parliament and certainly perfectly in keeping with the European Charter of Fundamental Rights.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Jorge BUXAD&Eacute; VILLALBA (ECR, ES), So there were two separate missions if you like, and the Chair of the delegation has headed some length her own personal view. But that is not a legal finding. And we had dozens of hours of meetings and we did not hear any specific finding of a serious violation of human rights to be substantiated. Quite the opposite. When it comes to the independence of the judiciary and our meeting with the Constitutional Court and the Hungarian Supreme Court, it turned out that the appointment system is no different to the systems in place in other EU member states.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Jorge BUXAD&Eacute; VILLALBA (ECR, ES), In actual fact, there is a different class of independence, and the way in which the Supreme Court has pointed is such that our colleagues admired the fact that they talk about the law and not politics. And in actual fact, there is more media freedom and more pluralism in Hungary than in Spain. And certainly, when it comes to journalists, I mean, just look to the left or to the right and look at how many conservative media outlets that are. In Hungary, 50 percent of media outlets are pro-government and 50 percent are pro-opposition or anti-government.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Jorge BUXAD&Eacute; VILLALBA (ECR, ES), So the upshot is that the findings of this mission are is that there are political attacks being rained down on Hungary. And when it comes to Article seven in the Council, there's one thing that is its prerogative. But the European Parliament's job is to defend the rights and freedoms that are under attack and not attempt to interfere in the internal political affairs of other nations, which are members of the European Union as well, such as Poland and Hungary. Thank you.

SOUNDBITE (English), Malin BJ&Ouml;RK (The Left, SE), Thank you very much. First of all, I want to thank the chair for her continuous work on this file and for heading up our mission, which was quite challenging and difficult one. And I think that the reasons why have been made quite clear by the other speakers, but it's clear that the atmosphere in which such a delegation can take place when you are, you know, smeared even before you arrive in a country, as a delegation, we were smeared as certain of us personally for being feminist, for being lesbian, not about having a discussion about our political views, but just being undermined even beforehand.

SOUNDBITE (English), Malin BJ&Ouml;RK (The Left, SE), And I think that this also shows the kind of the serious situation that prevails when it comes to media pluralism and how government controlled media is operating in Hungary. In terms of the fact finding of this mission, I think it was very useful, as the chair said, we've seen close to 100 people and talk to over 80 of them and at least those of us that participated in all those meetings, and I can confirm that two last participants didn't actually participate in all the meetings, but the rest of us did, and it was very useful from when it comes to the more knowledge about the deterioration in the justice system when it comes to a deterioration of media pluralism, the control of academia, the control of cultural institutions and not least also fundamental rights.

SOUNDBITE (English), Malin BJ&Ouml;RK (The Left, SE), For those of us that work with this, we know that when a state develops in an ever more authoritarian way, then also fundamental rights will be targeted. And this is also the case, and I hope that we can be able to discuss that more, LGBTI rights, not the least. So this is not the moment to be complacent.

SOUNDBITE (English), Malin BJ&Ouml;RK (The Left, SE), We have to continue the work in the European Parliament to be the watchdog and to pursue this work. We're in good hands in the in the rapporteur and this fact-finding mission, giving us lots of things to work with. I think we have to really put pressure on the Council to increase their work on the Article seven and to look into this foundation and the way the EU money is actually being used to consolidate and even more authoritarian regimes. Thank you very much.

Question about the implementation of the Next Generation EU Fund in Hungary and about the talk with the Commission

Question about the mission in Hungary and the talks with the NGOs and about the Rule of Law