Parliament debates the recent ruling of the Polish Constitutional Tribunal during the plenary session in Strasbourg. MEPs discuss the contentious verdict of Poland’s Constitutional Tribunal, which states that cornerstone provisions of the Treaty on the EU (Art. 1 and 19) are unconstitutional under Polish law. One round of statements of the political groups' leaders.This transcription is a result of an automatic process. Please check against delivery.

statement

Strasbourg

debate

plenary session

WEBER, Manfred (EPP, DE)

LEGUTKO, Ryszard Antoni (ECR, PL)

KELLER, Ska (Greens/EFA, DE)

GARCÍA PÉREZ, Iratxe (S&D, ES)

BAY, Nicolas (ECR, FR)

EU mechanism on democracy, the rule of law and fundamental rights (T)

EU - Poland (T)

SCHIRDEWAN, Martin (The Left, DE)

UHRÍK, Milan (NI, SK)

AZMANI, Malik (Renew, NL)

The Rule of law crisis in Poland and the primacy of EU law: one round of Political groups leaders

SOUNDBITE (German), Manfred WEBER (EPP, DE), President of the Commission, Prime Minister. First of all, we need to be clear about what we are discussing here today. We are not talking about the country of Poland, the citizens of Poland who have battled for freedom on many occasions in their past. We see the economic success of the last thirty years in Poland, which is breathtaking. Poland has proud people, which has taken its rightful place in the family of European nations. And we welcome them. And we are glad that we can live together as part of Europe. So it is not about the Poles, it is not about the country, it's about Polish policy as implemented by the government.

SOUNDBITE (German), Manfred WEBER (EPP, DE), So let us be factual, Europe is not a state. Europe is a community of states. And we have undertaken shared commitments which regulate the way our community works. We need to play by the rules. The constitutions of the member states yes, are fundamental, ut the way this community works is even more important. Let me explain this. My country signed the Maastricht Treaty and therefore had to change its constitution in order to render it compatible with the new legal framework in Europe. We therefore require that prospective member states such as North Macedonia also change its constitutional structures, so that it can become a member of the European Union. This has been our consistent policy. Yes, constitutions are fundamental and defined the way we interact and live together. But the rules of our our community take precedence are more important still than constitutions.

SOUNDBITE (German), Manfred WEBER (EPP, DE), The Constitution, in the shape of the Lisbon Treaty was adopted twelve or thirteen years ag,o when the Kaczyński was in power, he was one of your party colleagues. And the Poles then were prepared to accept the rules. But now we have got to look at the question of justice and we've got to look at how we can work together for a better future. Yes, we have debates in Germany, in the Czech Republic, in France, which you rightly alluded to. You said that these constitutional courts have also submitted questions. Yes, justice and dispense of justice should be a living thing. But what is specific about this Polish case is that there the independence of the Supreme Court, is it at question. And there are many legal experts who have said that the independence is clearly under question. And this is the question which we are focussing on centrally here today.

SOUNDBITE (German), Manfred WEBER (EPP, DE), I would like to thank the many Poles who took to the streets recently and showed that, yes, there is another Poland. Hundreds of thousands of Poles took to the streets in Warsaw and many other cities. And I would like to thank them. I would like to thank Donald Tusk, who was instrumental in organising this demonstration. The genuine patriots were out in the street with the Polish flags, proud of these flags and proud of the European flags they held in the other hand. A patriot is not a nationalist and must not be a nationalist. He should be, if a genuine patriot, are convinced European.

SOUNDBITE (German), Manfred WEBER (EPP, DE), And therefore, ladies and gentlemen, when we look at what the people in the street perceive of this debate, we can see that they are very much perceiving that there is an impact. They are demonstrating against Polexit, that they do not want to see it. If you reject the supremacy of the rulings of the European Court, then you are rejecting implicitly the independence of the judiciary. Donald Tusk is right, saying that the EU ruling has got to be revised because otherwise it is going to lead to major problems. And the Poles can understand and see this. They have perceived it very clearly.

SOUNDBITE (German), Manfred WEBER (EPP, DE), I would like to say. We have this opportunity, Prime Minister Morawiecki Tomorrow, that we are not differentiating between good and bad Europeans, between longer standing and newer Europeans. But I do look around and I see the people from all the different groups, that I remember the tourists who have said and done many things in the past, which have undermined Europe. And we have seen, for example, the AfD saying that far too much money is going to Bucharest and is going to Poland. So all round the EU there are different perceptions. And it was many of your supporters who were not keen that Europe should welcome Poland as a prospective and now very real strong member of the European Union. And therefore, you need to pay closer attention to what is going on in the streets, in the cities and towns of your country.

SOUNDBITE (German), Manfred WEBER (EPP, DE), There are many things that we need to realise about this discussion today. There are many people who like to see division in the EU. There are those who want to see a weaker EU. There are those who question the primacy of the Constitution and the constitutional state founded in the rule of law. And I say to you, Prime Minister, that you are actually sowing discord in the European Union with his speech given here today. You are making Europe weaker. And there are those who will welcome this. Above all, Vladimir Putin. Your policies simply play into the hands of our opponents and people such as Vladimir Putin, who has a vested interest in generating a divided Europe with the seeds of discord to be seen everywhere. So please stop this. Please stop this.

SOUNDBITE (German), Manfred WEBER (EPP, DE), We are discussing again, we are discussing questions such as infringements and on the rule of law proceedings in the Court of Justice. I would like to thank the Commission. And I'd like to ask whether, in fact, in the Council, we shouldn't be considering a rule of law Article seven infringement proceedings. Because every time that Council meets, they fail to impose a decision on the basis of Article seven. And this silence, which is emanating from the Council is crippling Europe. We need clarity from the Council so that all the countries which are founded on the constitutions and the rule of law in Europe can finally see a just solution to this. Thank you.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Iratxe GARC&#205;A P&#201;REZ (S&amp;D, ES), Thank you, Mr President. President von der Leyen, Prime Minister Morawiecki. It's important to hold this debate today. We have shown parliamentary respect listening to your intervention, and I'm sure you would do the same to us now, listening to the MEPs of this house and what we have to say to you, allow me to begin by reaffirming one point. We are fully aware of the importance of vote. Those of us in this house are here because we represent the citizens who with the vote have trusted in us. Allow me to remind you of one thing, that you as a Democrat should know. This votes do not give legitimacy to drift away from democracy.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Iratxe GARC&#205;A P&#201;REZ (S&amp;D, ES), We need to hold this debate. We need to do it for the good of the European Union and for the good of the Poland, because the ruling of the so-called constitutional court has created an unprecedented crisis. It's something I feel very sorry about. I deeply regret it, especially for those Poles who want to be part of the European Union and now don't know what will happen with the future. You say that you don't want a Polexit. Let me be clear. My political group doesn't want that either. But this is the EU, a serious organisation based on legal certainty. Unlike dictatorships or absolute monarchies, the European Union is based on law.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Iratxe GARC&#205;A P&#201;REZ (S&amp;D, ES), The law is the same for everyone and it guarantees peace because it's fair, predictable, because it's complied with. You're asking for respect, respect for diversity. We need to have more, this is the wealth of our union. But what makes it possible, decide amongst all of us to come to agreement amongst all of us. Our rules which guarantee equality for all. That's why someone threatens not to respect those rules, they walk towards the door on their own. No one is pushing you towards the door. But let me say that I think we are missing the focus of this debate.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Iratxe GARC&#205;A P&#201;REZ (S&amp;D, ES), When you and the PIS party set this out as a confrontation between Polish and European sovereignty, so you have not understood what the EU is. 70 years ago, the founding fathers understood that in an interdependent world, the best way of exercising sovereignty in certain areas was by sharing it together. We can better solve problems, together we are stronger, we come here voluntarily because we trust in each other, because we believe in a common future. We are not obliged to come here. No one is stealing anything from us by being part of the EU.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Iratxe GARC&#205;A P&#201;REZ (S&amp;D, ES), But to share that sovereignty, there has to be some basic principles which are given the separation of powers, independence of the judiciary, respect for freedom of the press, and I think that's where the problem is that governments such as yours have taken a path towards totalitarianism and regression. That's why your problem isn't with the European legal order, is with the principles of democracy, and the rule of law, and that's even more concerning. You don't like the fact that the EU institutions are telling you this. I'm sorry, but we cannot remain silent because we are loyal to the European project.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Iratxe GARC&#205;A P&#201;REZ (S&amp;D, ES), The Commission is obliged to act with those instruments that has we run out of time. The commission is the guardian of the treaties because when we accept that we lose trust, then we stop being partners and we become competitors. This parliament cannot remain silent because this is the House of European Democracy, and here we reflect what the Polish citizens also want . We've listened to what the streets in Poland are asking for. They want support. They're asking for the same thing as the judges and the prosecutors in your in your country.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Iratxe GARC&#205;A P&#201;REZ (S&amp;D, ES), There's one good thing that comes from all of this, beyond laws and beyond economic plans. The European Union is a family and that is something we're seeing in the streets of Poland today. Poland is much more than PIS, as Hungary is much more than Orban and Slovenia is more than Jansa. The citizens of these countries are suffering from the authoritarian drifty, a country trust in the European Union. We will be that voice. We will support them. We will not leave them behind.

SOUNDBITE (Spanish), Iratxe GARC&#205;A P&#201;REZ (S&amp;D, ES), We will not leave behind Polish women, we will continue to work with them to ensure their rights and that no one speaks on behalf. We are together in this. A few weeks ago I was in Warsaw and I felt the warmth of so many people who trust in Europe. We will not let them down. We want to. I also am aware of the fact that what these people think, we know that we will continue with dialogue and we will always listen to Mr. Morawiecki. We will listen to you with respect. But you also need to listen to the vast majority of Europeans who want to work together.

SOUNDBITE (English), Malik AZMANI (Renew, NL), President Von der Leyen, Prime Minister, representative of the Council. Dear colleagues. When the European Union is united, Poland is protected. When the European Union is united, Poland is protected. Throughout the most painful history of this continent, it has been Poland and its brave citizens that have suffered most from European divisions. That is why your attempts, Prime Minister, to threaten the stability and safety of the Union are even more sinister. For years, you have been infecting the minds of Polish people with lies and manipulation about European rules and regulations.

SOUNDBITE (English), Malik AZMANI (Renew, NL), Member states are entitled to want changes in the legal order of the Union. But the way to do this is to propose, to discuss, and compromise. This is how our Union works. Unilateral, illegal actions cannot be accepted and will have consequences. We, Renew Europe, call on you President Von Der Leyen to act immediately on the following: reject the recovery plan for Poland, trigger the rule of law conditionality mechanism. No more ifs or buts.

SOUNDBITE (English), Malik AZMANI (Renew, NL), Can you tell me which laws exactly you find so reprehensible? Protecting freedom of religion? The right of individuals? Or maybe the freedom of press or the independence of the judiciary? Let me remind you, the Poles joined the EU precisely to protect these values. You are not being honest with the Polish people, Prime Minister, and you know it. We have all listened to your denials but the truth is that your actions are a sly way to leave Poland out of the Union. Start being honest and explain to your start ups they will lose development funds. Tell your farmers they will miss out of subsidies and tell your students that they can forget Erasmus.

SOUNDBITE (English), Malik AZMANI (Renew, NL), Prime Minister, I still hope we can one day walk the path together on the road of cooperation, mutual understanding and respect. But until that moment you will bear the consequences of your actions and have to face your people when they find out you told them a lie. And I want to conclude by quoting a wise and brave Polish resistance fighter, Wanda Tracczyk Stawska, we spoke at a pro-European rally ten days ago: we have always been in Europe, no one will take us out, this is our Europe. And you might learn some lessons from her. Thank you very much.

SOUNDBITE (English), Ska KELLER (Greens/EFA, DE), Dear Prime Minister, I welcome the opportunity to speak to you directly, even though unfortunately, I might have missed that hopeful part that you promised to us. Maybe we should give him the extra time for that, President. I believe, Prime Minister, though, that you are leading your country on a dangerous path. A path which questions the country's well deserved place at the heart of the European Union. And I remember very well today when Poland joined the European Union. It was just such a joyful day, such a day full of hope, of overcoming very physical borders, but also the borders in our head.

SOUNDBITE (English), Ska KELLER (Greens/EFA, DE), Our Union Is not just an economic alignment. It's a union of peace, corporation, of democracy, and the same rules applying to everyone. A Union where members have voluntarily agreed to submit to commonly found agreements in order to offer their citizens a better life to overcome conflicts and to guarantee peace. And the Polish government has questioned those fundamental pillars, and if we let that pass, then there won't be much left of those pillars before long.

SOUNDBITE (English), Ska KELLER (Greens/EFA, DE), This is a test for all of us, but mostly for the European Commission and, President Von der Leyen, being the guardian of the treaties has never been an easy task. But this time is different. When a member state blatantly questions the fundamentals, the Commission must act strongly and swiftly. Time and time again your Commission has extended a hand of dialogue to the Polish government. But, President von der Leyen, the Polish government has rejected your hand. It is now high time that you fulfil the obligations that the EU's treaty put on you: to defend citizens of Poland and to defend the core of the Union, a Union built on justice. Thank you.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, DE), Thank you Mr President, Madam President, Prime Minister, Dear Colleague. Who defends the legitimacy, who defends liberty. The rule of law cannot be separated from national and popular sovereignty. This learnt assembly of commissioners, civil servants and from other countries are they legitimate to tell our people what is a way of life or system of government should be? Well, that's the question. Those are the questions that bring us here today.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, FR), Three years ago, I went to Warsaw as part of an official parliament for our parliament to look at judicial reform in the country, which we were being referred to as systemic violation of the rule of law. What I saw, as in Hungary two weeks to go, whereas a similar mission was that these accusations were baseless. There was nothing to see. There were baseless. We could ask ourselves legitimately about the impartiality of the European institutions, who with her, worry about the primacy of EU law only in certain cases. And we could see the ideological motivations of that.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, FR), As you said, Prime Minister, similar judgements have also been given in Germany, in Italy, Spain, Romania, even in France, where we have a concept of constitutional identity. Moreover, Brussels doesn't worry about the problem of separation of power in all countries. It is only in certain countries and always the same countries, and we are seeing growing radicalisation. The Commission and the European political left area, and we see now the EPP are part of the European left, as demonstrated by the lack of civility from Manfred Weber are involved in persecuting sovereign governments and where we have conservative governments who are democratically elected. And it should make, a lot of you think about to that fact.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, FR), Now we have seen a wise decision from the European Council, which is suspended, the Article seven proceedings and there are organisations on Polish justice have been found to be baseless. We find other premises of EP demands of the desire to control child sex education. And now the Polish people are being taken hostage by using the post Covid recovery plan as a way to apply financial pressure. The methods are abhorrent. The aims are also abhorrent. Prime Minister, your adversaries are not looking for the truth. They want to impose on you. They demand forced public confessions in a country which stood up to totalitarianism twice in the past century.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, FR), Rule of law is a pretext for a EU Stalinist trial. We know the real reasons. You are not accepting migration. You are not accepting European federalism, which is trying to creep into all national policies from education to health by the Family Policy and Judiciary Organisation. But why is this panic from the federalists? It's quite simply, the Polish Constitutional Court has put the EU in its place. Its reminded that they are made up of the EU, is made up of countries who consent freely to this common project. The powers the EU has only those which have been delegated to Brussels by the treaties, and that's why they are therefore. So there will not be a legal Polexit. There will not be a political Polexit.

SOUNDBITE (French), Nicolas BAY (ID, FR), Prime Minister, Poland is a great European nation. It was often at the heart of European history, sometimes for your misfortune, sometimes for your glory. In many occasions, above all, the siege of Vienna and 1683, the Poles have resisted. You have fought for European civilisation. Today you continue this tradition. You trying to put an end to the extension of European law, which is being instrumentalise to impose policy that people do not want. Thank you, Prime Minister, for your endurance against these unjustified accusations. Thank you for your determination in defending the freedom of our nations. Thank you for your foresight to defend the civilised, the values of civilisation. Stay strong.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard Antoni LEGUTKO (ECR, PL), Mr. Presidentm Madam President, Prime Minister. Prime Minister, from what you have heard so far, you might have already guessed that you found yourself in a most peculiar place. The European Parliament is the institution first that has been governed by the same political coalition from time immemorial, rather unusual in any nation state, with predictably unfortunate consequences. Second, the coalition is decidedly left wing with the EPP and Donald Tusk follow suit, more and more radical and tries to enforce their leftist views on the entire world recently, believe it or not, on the American state of Texas.

SOUNDBITE (English), Ryszard Antoni LEGUTKO (ECR, PL), Three, it has no understanding for dissent and therefore surrounds the dissenting groups by a cordon sanitaire, which is quite an effective way of neutralising the opposition. And forth, it has managed to establish the tyranny of the majority, that controls everything from administration to the distribution of the key political position. So, once you keep this in mind, you will understand why this Parliament has been waging a Cold War against and trying to destabilise conservative governments in Europe; and why, to achieve this end, they have been violating the basic principles of the treaties and made up the ad hoc rules that are not there.

SOUNDBITE (English), Ryszard Antoni LEGUTKO (ECR, PL), And it is unglorious task they have been unfortunately seconded by other institutions, including the European Commission, which at least since the Times of Jean-Claude Juncker and Mr Timmermans, became a political institution, strongly partisan, ideological and arrogance. The principles of conferral, subsidiarity and proportionality explicitly inscribed in the article five were thrown overboard. To give an example, tomorrow there will be another chapter of Poland bashing because of our abortion law, that such matters as abortion are exclusively the competences of the nation state... Who cares? The majority can outvote any restraining rule if making "two plus two is five" were to hurt the Polish government, they would not hesitate to put it to vote. And you know what? Chances are that they would have it carried.

SOUNDBITE (English), Ryszard Antoni LEGUTKO (ECR, PL), Having got rid of the basic principles of the treaties, they came up with their own rules, which don't exist in the treaties and which the treaties precludes. The first product of their inventive genius came from the Commission and it was the Rule of Law framework, and that is then its parliamentary offspring, the rule of conditionality and absolute outrage, a monstrosity from a legal and moral point of view. So what? Might is right. The newest Gizmo is the primacy of the EU law. In various public statements this phrase has been immersed in a typical EU gobbledegook. But I would like to know what exactly you mean by making this claim, madam President. That is not a word about it in the treaties. Where did you take it from? If not from the treaties, then where from? And what do you think it means?

SOUNDBITE (English), Ryszard Antoni LEGUTKO (ECR, PL), That the European law trumps national law in the areas over which the EU has exclusive competences? This is a rather commonsensical statement, nobody questions it. That the European law trumps the National law in the areas over which the EU does not have any competence. But this is absurd. It would be like the prime primacy of the European law over the law of the state of Texas. I am sure that the majority of my colleagues in this chamber would want precisely this, but this does not make it any less absurd. Or perhaps, by primacy, you mean that the European institutions will decide which areas are under their competence and which are not, and the national institutions will have no power to oppose their decision. But this is a very dangerous concept, extremely dangerous, because it gives the EU omnipotence and omniscience. It does not have, it cannot have. And to be frank, it does not deserve,

SOUNDBITE (English), Ryszard Antoni LEGUTKO (ECR, PL), Over the last decade, the EU has turned out unable to restrain itself and respect the limits imposed by the principles of conferral, subsidiarity and proportionality. The trust that it will stay within the treaties in the years to come is gone. You see, Madam President, we are not afraid of European law. We are afraid of European lawlessness, of the tyranny of the majority, on abuse of power, of the cavalier use of the treaties, despite what one can see in the Parliament, and in the Commission, might is not right.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Martin SCHIRDEWAN (The Left, DE), Thank you very much, President, Mrs Von der Leyen, at the start of your presidency, you talked about the existing conflicts between Poland and wanting to resolve them through the course of dialogue. There was an infringement procedure that was in train at the moment and, since then, the wheels of justice haven't really rolled anywhere. And we've seen that the conflicts have just got worse and worse.

SOUNDBITE (German), Martin SCHIRDEWAN (The Left, DE), That passivity from the Commission and from you, Mrs Von der Leyen, has brought us to this situation. Please, finally assume your responsibility. The time for fine speeches is over. Please, act. And please make sure that the Rule of Law conditionality mechanism be applied and stop appeasing the authoritarian powers that policy should not be funded by European money. Now, Prime Minister, you have tried to assume the mantle of the right in this house. We can hear from you all the applause you got from that part of the chamber. You continue to throw sand in the eyes of the populace, but you're basically continuing to undermine the judiciary and establish political, judicial rule. And the Rule of Law here is what we're talking about today. And this is key that in Poland we are seeing a fundamental reconstruction in Poland, not just aimed at the judiciary, but also on the observance of fundamental rights.

SOUNDBITE (German), Martin SCHIRDEWAN (The Left, DE), There are no critical words that you found to talk about the LGBTI free zones, which are illegal in your country, which are being tolerated by you and promoted by you. I think it's outrageous how your country refuses women to have sexual freedoms of this century rather than being sent back to chastity belts. Of course, you can't just build a fence to stop things from happening as you're trying to do with Belarus. You can't build fences to help human rights. So it's not surprising that the Polish authorities have called into question the Rule of Law. We've heard this in this chamber from many different quarters, but don't be led astray. If one country starts to abuse the Rule of Law, if then many other countries may well follow and that will be the political end of the European Union. Thank you for your attention.

SOUNDBITE (Slovak), Milan UHR&#205;K (NI, SK), Madame Chair, Prime Minister. I only have one minute, so I'm going to call it as it is: politically incorrect. This is a message to liberals. Please stop bullying Central Europe with this made up mistakes. Hungarians and Poles, whatever they do, you always find some reason to bash them, to punish them, to speak up against them. Let's not be idealistic. The European rule of law that you talk about is nothing else but an alternative tool of control of pushing a liberal agenda in a conservative Central European countries. And, on behalf of the conservative citizens of Slovakia, I can say that Poland has our full support when protecting their sovereignty. And I have a message for the liberals in the West, do not provoke us. Do not provoke Central Europe. Let us get back to the very beginnings of the EU: economic cooperation, mutual trade. But let let us not see an effort to import ideologies that we do not agree with. Thank you.