Members of the Special EP Committee on Foreign Interference in all Democratic Processes in the European Union, including Disinformation (INGE) hold an exchange of views with Mikhail KHODORKOVSKY, Dossier Center. Opening statements by Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D,FR), INGE Chair, Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), rapporteur, Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), Chair of the delegation to the EU-Russia Parliamentary Cooperation Committee and Mikhail KHODORKOVSKY, founder of Dossier Center. This transcription speech is the result of an automatic process. Check against delivery.

Brussels

exchange of views

meeting

EU - Russia (T)

fight against hate speech, populism, and fake news on social media (T)

CZARNECKI, Ryszard (ECR, PL)

KUBILIUS, Andrius (EPP, LT)

GLUCKSMANN, Raphaël (S&D, FR)

Special committee on Foreign Interference in all Democratic Processes in the European Union, including Disinformation

KHODORKOVSKI, Mikhaïl (RU)

Exchange of views with Mikhail KHODORKOVSKY, Dossier Center in INGE Committee: opening statements by Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), INGE Chair, Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), rapporteur, Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL) and Mikhail KHODORKOVSKY

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - The minutes will be deemed adopted. The next item of the agenda is an exchange of views with Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who is the founder of Dossie Centre. Relations between the European Union and Russia have unfortunately deteriorated further recently.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - The Russian government has sanctioned just a week ago the president of the European Parliament, Mr. David Sassoli, the vice president of the European Commission, responsible for democracy and the fight against disinformation, Mrs. Jourova, as well as five other European citizens.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - We wish to express our total solidarity with them today. In this tense context, it is important for us, as representatives of European citizens to maintain close contacts with democratic movements in Russia.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - And we are particularly happy to receive here today one of the strong Russian voices who are opposing the regime of Vladimir Putin. Mr. Khodorkovsky. Mr. Khodorkovsky, you are a former prisoner of conscience. You founded the Russian Open Russia Foundation and you support democratic movements in Russia.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - We are therefore particularly delighted to have you with us today and to be able to discuss with you the Kremlin's interference in the political life of European countries. We wish also to involve in this discussion the Foreign Affairs Committee and the delegation to the Parliamentary Cooperation Committee between the EU and Russia.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - So we very much thank the representatives of effort and of the delegation to the EU Russia Parliamentary Cooperation Committee.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - And of course, we welcome the AFET rapporteur on Russia, Mr. Andreas Kubilius and Mr. Richard Czarnecki, who is the chair of the EU Russia Parliamentary Cooperation Committee delegation. But I'll begin, first of all, with Mr Kubilius. You have the floor, sir.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - Well, Mr. Chairman, and also let me immediately to appeal to Mr. Chodorkovsky, really on behalf of our committee, I can say that it's always a pleasure to see you, to listen to you or to read your insightful and I would say optimistic interviews about the long term future of Russia like you did recently in Ekho Moskvy.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - I remember personally our first meetings back in the beginning of 2002 when Yukos was acquired in a refinery in Lithuania and my country at that time, I was positively surprised that Russian business can be of such international quality in its management.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - Its business of Kremlin in such a brutal way destroys the future of Russia. I share with you that type of optimism that Russian people definitely will change situation in Russia. Russia in the future will be different. The only question is when it will happen.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - The Western community can assist Russian people in that goal. But Russian community and especially EU countries, first of all, need to clean their own house from hybrid Kremlin influences dirty money and corruption.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - As all of us we know, Kremlin is very good in exporting that type of products and services of corruption and making Western community quite often impotent to push back Kremlin both externally and domestically.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - If we want to see a democratic transformation of Russia, first of all, we here in European Parliament, in EU, we need to clean our house.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - Mikhail we know you as not only as prominent public figure who is critical to what's Kremlin policy of today when I was that you are also initiated and you support the famous dossier, a group of investigations which became prominent with recent publications on Kremlin secret attempts to influence political developments in Eastern Partnership countries.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - In Central Europe and Baltic states. We are familiar with one type of Kremlin influences what Kremlin is using national businesses, seduce them with lucrative contracts in Russia, then pushes them into national politics and usually they are becoming quite successful in their political activities.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - In 2016 we have a very important study by CSA, CSI as Washington based think tank with very important title Kremlin playbook understanding Russian influence in Central and Eastern Europe, which exactly described real stories from different countries.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - How such Kremlin influence is relevant. Such type of Kremlin hybrid influences are difficult to detect. It's difficult to prevent them and in Central Europe, we are still struggling with that.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Andrius KUBILIUS (EPP, LT), - So my very simple question: Can you share your insights into that matter and answer very simple a what I would call Russian style question who is guilty and what to do with that.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - Thank you very much, Mr. Czarnecki. You now have the floor, sir.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), - Thank you chair, for the possibility of my speech. Firstly, I would like to congratulate the committee for always inviting very relevant guests, speakers on the important topic that concerns all of us.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), - The continuous Russian interference in our democracy and its wide use of discrimination campaigns to discredit our institutions and create division amongst our citizens. Also, I would like also to welcome Kosky, who deserves all our respect after suffering himself long years of repression in Russian jails.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), - In spite of this, through his Dossier Association with the bravely denounces the criminal activities of various people associated with the Kremlin.

paragraph-23 Propaganda and disinformation have always been a favourite tool of autocratic regimes, even in times of peace. But the challenge that we are facing through the Russian mullein use of social media is much bigger.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), - It erodes the trust of our citizens, our political systems, and intends to polarise our societies. Furthermore, cyber attacks originated in Russia, but endanger our infrastructures and services.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), - Finally, the Russian interference in Europe and the United States elections and the criminal activities of the Russian intelligence services in our member states are proven facts. The Kremlin argues that is just defending itself from Western sanctions and the Western project financing aimed to a regime change.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), - However, the Kremlin knows as much as we ought to do, that is not true, and that is actions only speak at the regime's survival and that of the Russian political economic elite, the Kremlin simply getting disparade.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), - The absurdity of the recent ban the European Parliament president to enter the Russian territory is the best evidence I can figure out. The thing that the Russian population is aware of the destabilisation that their government is creating?

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), - In your opinion, would the Russian people approve such actions if they were fully aware of their content? My questions, the recent recent demonstrations across Russia showing solidarity with Mr. Alexei Navalny have been met with an unusually high degree of repressions.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Ryszard CZARNECKI (ECR, PL), - In view of the September elections to the Duma shall we predict that the Russian threats to the outside world will increase? It's my next question. And finally, if President Putin keeps losing popularity and the smart voting system proposed by Navalny prevails, will the Russian population enter into a more dangerous place. Thank you for your attention and good luck.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - Merci, thank you. Well, as you'll see, obviously, we're really waiting impatiently to hear what you have to say. We hope as well that we'll be able to get more precise information from you and be able to continue to work with you in the future, you have the floor now for 10 minutes.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Ladies and gentlemen, first of all, I would like to thank you for the invite to take the floor at the special committee meeting, and I would like to present a report on the tortures and attempts of the Kremlin to influence foreign powers, and that's what our dossier centre has done.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - This text is available on our website and we'll provide you with the log in and password. And that's why I will identify just the highlights. So when you look into this report, please don't forget that this dossier report does the centre report.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - It's a voluntary journalistic report. So we've verified the information, but unfortunately, we wouldn't be able to prove this information at court level because there are concerns about the lives and security of relatives of those people who've presented this information.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And that's why we are convinced that all in all, the information is correct. But they shouldn't be published without verification for us. And of course, we don't claim that we have presented all the information.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - The facts and the events that are listed in the report would look acceptable if it were about a good neighbourly relations between countries. But this is, again, is against the policy that the Kremlin is actually implementing and so what the Kremlin is doing vis a vis the European Union looks like a resemblance of the Cold War era.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - So the same activities that would look, that would have looked normal, should raise concern on your side. Allow me to just give you a brief review of this facts of unfriendly behaviour.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - During an official investigation, it was identified that Russian special services were involved in 2006 when Alexander Litvinenko had been poisoned using polonium. So they used the radioactive mass weapons of mass destruction in the capital of London of the U.K.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Then Ivan was killed in Vienna and the Austrian police identified Mr Ramzan Kadyrov, the head of Chechnya, as the person who contracted this murder in 2011 in London under suspicious circumstances.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Lawyer was poisoned with some poisonous stuff. In 2012 Special Services, in 2008, 18 Special Services committed an act of poisoning the script, and a UK citizen died as a result of this attack.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Then next year, Chechen separatists was killed in daylight in Berlin and again it was identified that the murderer had close links with the FSB. So there are serious grounds to believe that the Kremlin is also involved in sabotage activities.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And I'm referring to the explosion in the Czech Republic in 2014 and as a result to check citizens got killed. The Kremlin is also involved in fuelling the armed conflict in Ukraine. And so for the first time since the end of the Second World War, a territory of a European state have been annexed.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And here I'm referring to the Crimea. So Russia is interfering in the foreign policy of foreign of Western countries. Allow me to remind you what the Kremlin did in 2016 in the USA. And there are also other known attempts of interference.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And now, in brief, a country, my country, take Germany. This is one of the countries that has been under a lot of attacks from the Kremlin. So Russian officials and some German officials, they are lobbying and their ties with the dozens of Bundestag deputies who are promoting the Russian agenda.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Russian representatives were involved in purchasing components for the weapons of mass destruction for Russian military industrial through middlemen companies mista of guinea pig origin, who is a crony of Mr. Putin, and in our opinion, he has something to do with the killing of three Russian journalists.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And also there is a private security company that is involved in the events in Africa and it's under sanctions in the USA. However, these companies work in Germany.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - So there is another organisation that invited a lot of people to legitimise the elections in different African countries and also some German politicians go to elections in Russia so informally there are no connexions, but still it's been done in order to gain influence.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - There are also ultra conservative values that are being promoted, and this is done by the Russian railway officials. But we believe that in the past, Mr. Ukraine was also a special service agent. His organisation is used to find allies for the Kremlin in the European countries and then to lobby the Kremlin interests.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Mr Putin probably has a source in the inner circle of Angela Merkel because she's referring to some very specific documents. So, for instance, the company Siemens was blamed for bribing for graft for Russian officials.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - However, the investigation hasn't got to court yet. Let's go back to the murder that took place in the middle of Berlin. Germany expelled two Russian diplomats, but we still know that there are at least 200 agents of the Russian special services. This information is also known to the German law enforcement agencies.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Take Austria now, a former manager was used by special services of the Russian Federation to get information from Western politicians, Mr. Massalek was working for Russia and especially in the projects where Russia is involved in military activities.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Both German and Austrian officials were involved, as well as one of the key figures in the Austrian intelligence service. There was also a link to the former French president Sarkozy.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And at this juncture, Massalek is allegedly hiding somewhere in Russia. Take France now. France was used as a base for the and projects, for instance, for this troll factory of Mr .

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Based on the documents that we've got access to, Mr. Pregodin is trying to influence the public opinion of the French vis a vis what is happening in the African countries. There was also an attempt to instigate a diplomatic scandal between Italy and France.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - There are also attempts to influence experts and Mr. Tremaglia over the last several years. He visited Russia over 50 times, for instance, to be an observer at elections. But his assessment was very far from that, we believe would be close to reality.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - So Mr. Constantin Marrasek in another figure that was more gauging this views. Eric Chapald both after he became and before that, he became an EP based on our data. He was drafting projects for meetings between the Kremlin representatives and those people who deal with French politicians at this meeting.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Mr. Morpheus then presented reports to the Kremlin administration. We also believe that Mr. Chappard made arrangements to meet the general of the foreign intelligence. And they also exchanged their assessment of the referendum in the Crimea.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Then Chappard was interacting with Mr. Vladimir Yakunin and also presented a project for him. And together with Yakunin, Chappard was planning to use his access to the European Parliament.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Take reasonable precautions, thugs went to Greece so that they could influence the policy of this country within the EU. And we believe that they were planning to support the programme and politicians in elections and as well as well as Konstantin Gabriela's in the elections to the European Parliament.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And that's how they were planning to launch a pro Kremlin party in Europe so that to redistribute the EU funds for the sake of Russian companies. Kremlin political analysts noted that for 2019, there were about 15 politicians who were expecting support from the Kremlin.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Nine of them were mayors, one was mayor hopeful and one of them was governor hopeful. There are about 30 municipalities which are pro Kremlin and. Thessaloniki and Athene's were special zones, and we also know that the programming and political technologies were trying to influence the pro Kremlin mood within the electorate.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And there are also connexions with the minister of defence of Russia. Now, the Czech Republic, we believe that some high ranking officials in the Czech Republic have connexions with those who are Putin's crones, again, with Mr. Vladimir Yakunin.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - They visit different Kremlin based events and Kremlin organised events, and this people may involve members from the political, from the Communist Party, Zdenek Andrachek from the Communist Party of the Czech Republic.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Now now Cyprus, the deputy prosecutor general, loyalty to. Based on the league from his correspondence in 2017, we believe that this person for a long time had been an unofficial consultant for the Kremlin and in some cases interfered for the sake of the Kremlin.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Again, she knew that she was violating the framework of wickerwork Poland, Mr. Moskovsky, in 2016. He was prosecuted because he was suspected in links with Russian special services. He was in close contact with Russian political spin doctors, and he was also an organiser of the Kremlin attempts to promote its agenda in Europe.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - I believe that the documents that we have give us evidence that there. Kremlin spin doctors wanted him to find pro Kremlin politicians in Europe so that to promote the Kremlin agenda in Europe and he also was an observer at the Russian elections, as well as those in Europe.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - He was also used to promote anti EU agenda in Moldova. Now, Lithuanian and Lithuanian company was involved in a number of media scandals, again because of the links with with Putin's cronies.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - For instance, Rostak, Mr. Gemas Company and the same Mr. Preclusion. The leadership of this company rejects the accusation like those accusations, because and again, the Kremlin spin doctors, for reasons unknown to us, marked him as a friendly candidate for president.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Algirdas Politicus is another politician. He is under investigation because allegedly he was involved with the Russian special services and he has been in touch with Russian agents of influence as of 2010.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And he has managed to continue these activities even under investigation. He was also involved in the activities in Moldova that looked like anti European ones. He was accused of cooperation with the Russian special services.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - He still continued his contacts with intelligence agents and they are monitoring his case and are preparing. Evidence for the events where he was involved in 1991 in Latvia, I would look at Mr. Aron, who is the head of the foundation generation.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - He is a close friend of Putin and he could be used to deliver on Mr. Putin's orders in all of you. He was also connected with the structures and companies that have been under sanctions.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - There are also data on financing of Latvian companies from the Kremlin, either through the embassy or through. Some foundations that are again, crumbling affiliated the Russian Pizarro's came here and there is a foundation for the support of Russian nationals abroad.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - There is a cultural foundation, this foundation that done although it wasn't in my mentor, but after her retirement, she continued to provide lots of money to this and her assistant was the head of the Baltic news that had been financed by the company Russia Today.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - The relatives of Mr. Yuri Kovalchuk, and again, Putin's clones who are under EU sanctions, they own property in Latvia, Tokarev and Kovalchuk are the key figures in the scheme that was revealed by in this film, again, some data from are reliable sources, some data from different people.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - Again, we cannot verify 100 percent these data, although we personally are convinced that these are true documents. My centre makes the following conclusion. So there are close contacts between the Kremlin and politicians and different levels in Europe, and these are unfriendly activities.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - They are to undermine the policy through provoking conflict, corruption and physical intimidation. Interaction between European politicians of the public figures and also of the business with the Kremlin should be viewed through the prism of what the Kremlin policy is all about.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - And your question about the attitude of the Russian population, should they have all the information about what the Kremlin does in the European Union.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Mikhaïl KHODORKOVSKI, founder of the Open Russia Movement, ex oligarch, - I can tell you that this information that gets to the Russians about Putin's properties and the Kremlin's property and their relatives and how they use their assets to provide for a luxurious life and also to influence the European life, are negatively viewed by the Russians because they understand very well that this money has been stolen from them. Thank you for your attention.

SOUNDBITE (Original), Raphaël GLUCKSMANN (S&D, FR), Chair, - Thank you.